. You cant speak in tongues? Youll see they have no standards regarding truth, salt of light. They are relinquishing 10-20% of their gross income. If Mark Driscoll is going to wanna manipulate his 501(c)3 Church audience to give him a second chance, hes gonna havta try harder. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. . Many others voiced their concerns about the images coming out of the church over the weekend, including Springfield-Greene County Health Director Clay Goddard, who said he was shocked by what he saw considering Missouri currently has more than 328,000 cases of the virus and no less than 4,358 deaths since the pandemic began. There were a number of other worship songs that roll on after this one, if these are your taste. So work harder for the state and your comrades who do not meet their quotas. They are described as brilliant. Sure, It is very reasonable for kind folK to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them (missive pastors) to go back to influencing the lives of the folks that they wish to shepherd. Dont get Left Behind. Here is Stephen facing public opposition. It is all choreographed and it works! Over the next two Sundays he will continue to remind people to vote Yes and to take a Yes sign for their yard. Is to be- mode. Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. @ sam: then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: vengance is where you make someone pay. If after many years of that, he wrote a book about how God brought about change within, Id be interested in reading it. Yes, thanks for this. When he agreed to accept an $850,000 annual pay package while other staff were being laid off due to declining offerings, was he in a fugue state, incapable of understanding what was going on? Yes, Lord, he answered. And so on. "Eastview Christian Church pastor, Mike Baker, resigns after son, Caleb Baker, is fired from Central Christian Church for adultery" Why? I suppose they could have been made up, although the accounts are supported by numerous descriptions of his pig like behavior. your post is so right LT, the whole post, and it really needs to be said again and again. http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- @ sam: It refers to protecting the King of Israel from physical harm, not preventing people from telling the truth. I hope you found some of the above helpful. Q. James River Church, a multi-campus, 17,000-member megachurch in Missouri, is now fending off strong criticism from the public and health officials after pictures posted on social media showed what appear to be hundreds of unmasked people, practicing very little social distancing packed inside their Springfield location to participate in Christmas I would lay 50 to 1 odds that a change in MD will be announced and proved to be a change in words not a change in behavior! Ever heard a sermon about Slaying your giants? . Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. He apparently had many nicknames during the course of his life, but became known by Che. It is not short for chancho.. have caused me to go into a major identity crisis, what i thought were well meaning however slightly misguided churches and some of the right wing christian patriots are not who or what i thought they were. Who has wounded you? 15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. And then they wonder that people not in their bubble have very little understanding for their version of religion and cry persecution. if mark is truly repentant than this sermon is him explaining how he persecuted and publicly stoned stephen to death which was actually mark stoning Jesus to death publicly and with no remorse. I wouldnt want to walk in his shoes and succumb to the large amount of pride he exhibits, what an empty way to live. He wants to release you from that burden and bondage, they haven't asked for forgiveness? I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. Join thousands of others to get the FREEDOM POST newsletter for free, sent twice a week from The Christian Post. But the dishonest churches can be relied upon to cry persecution. In case this was not a rhetorical question, the correct answer is entertainment. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. I know, that sounds horribly arrogant but I lacked it in buckets for years. During this pandemic we have helped thousands of people with food, financial assistance, counsel, and spiritual encouragement. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility. Not here to argue about this, just pointing it out. I really do believe that Driscoll has sociopathic tendencies. The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. But if I had trusted my gut at the time I would have admitted that staff viewing the members as guests is so far outside Body of Christ thinking it should not require an explanation. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. I dont think it is realistic. The SGM defenders used the no criminal charges aspect of innocence, too, when it came to CJ. Galatians 5:22-23. Dont you want to be a part of that? Now I am working on something for Monday. There was another couple along with us who knew a bit more about him and we absolutely amazed that this man, who could have been an elder, could not see through the act which you described so perfectly. Actually, they have as much as said that there is a good root (their doctrines/practices that accidentally produced some bad fruit. Sovereign Grace Ministries I am still finding it hard to believe that Mr. Houston doesnt have access to Google, or some other search engine, in Australia. I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscolls mistakes. The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its misuse of funds. Going forward, we are committed to doing a better job of encouraging and maintaining the procedures necessary to keep people safe and secure, James River Church officials explained. Driscoll has been more than a jerk, he has shown the inability to hold power without abusing it. I completely understand why you are so skeptical. I tend to doubt it but who knows. We saw the Dallas Morning News drop TVC story like it had Ebola germs on it despite knowing that parents were not being warned of a pedophile in their midst. @ sam: Its the same game he has played. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? His behaviour has been SO egregious, that I believe that he needs to stay out of anything that offers him a place of leadership or authority. Mark Driscoll, thepreacher who stepped down from his Seattle megachurch in October 2014after being accusedof plagiarism, bullying and an unhealthy ego has beentrying to returnto some kind of speaking tourat Christian conferences. jesus example they put a robe on him a mockery of his kingship. Internet users are also shielded from much of GW reality. The youngest generation may be leaving the church in record numbers but at least they have a fighting chance of finding the real God later. They were perceived as mediators between the person and Christ. Im sure someone wittier than I can do something with his Training ourselves to sense right from wrong. Driscoll also distanced himself from past crude and misogynistic remarks, calling the perception of what I think about womenentirely my own fault. We have been led by God to support another ministry. Almost all of them pointed to Gods leading. It certainly looked like they had been coached on what to say. The US pastor, who has courtedcontroversy for what has been dubbed his "more-macho-than-thou" brand of Christianity, resigned from his Seattle megachurch in October after being found "guilty of pride" as well as abusive, controlling and manipulative behaviour. "Join us as we welcome guest speaker, Pastor Mark Driscoll, while he presents Paul the ForgivenPastor Mark Driscoll speaks from Acts 6:8-15 to discuss the importance of forgiveness in our own lives through the example of the Apostle Paul. I hope more will speak up in the future. his heart is revealed by the countenance of his face. (I guess angles smile a lot) And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? Some great insights there, Bob. I never thought of that but that certainly might be the case. Only the hero. He lives in the Show Me State, so go ahead and show me. Did Driscoll forget about the part where Saul went away for years after his conversion. we see this in culture and politics all the time. You cant speak in tongues? there is a scripture somewhere that says i wont speak against Gods annointed, which was david re saul i believe, and people have used this (or churches have used this to keep people quiet) as a reason to never say anything about church abuse. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? There was an uncanny feeling to this experience. ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. Thanks for your informative comment. As much as I distrust Acts29 and the YRR, and as much as many see Matt Chandlers action as mere damage control, at least he admitted that they screwed up, and there is still hope that he really meant it and that they will really act differently in the future because theyve learned something. I began to see him as a marketing expert, who was producing what the young Reformed, technology driven market would respond to, and then marketing it in excellent ways. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: Great insight. Of course he gave all kinds of excuses, Im young, brash, etc. But as he aged, and he spoke more and more, nothing changed, it got more vulgar, more illicit language, more rude, more obnoxious. People think that Christians want filled pews and big churches, most do, i strongly disagree with that. You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting such a bully in the name of Jesus Christ. Join us for life-giving worship, encouraging stories and testimonies, and a powerful message from Pastor John. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. sam wrote: The question is not, Can he be forgiven? but rather Should he be trusted in a position of power over peoples lives? I would guess that many of the people who have been directly harmed by him have forgiven him. What is tragic is that these events will lead everyone who has two braincells to rub together to come to the following default conclusions: If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are true. Was that MDs evil twin Dark Miscoll who said elders who disagree with him need to be put in wood chippers or that women need to bring their men to Jesus by orally servicing them every morning whether they like it or not? I dont view it as cynicism although I do joke about it that way around Christians to head off the backlash. The reason for this is that he wept, his remorse was written on his face for months and he still is remorseful, he didnt once make any excuse for his behavior, he accepted responsiblility and reached out to the family of the victim. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? When I read your comment, this suddenly popped into my head. Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. As Gram wrote above these are relationships (if you can call it that) built on trust. no., to forgive them prepares you to see jesus. i have very little church experience so i dont think i am qualified to even speak to these things though. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world. Even setting aside his vulgarity, what of his abusiveness, his corruption? "Homosexual activity will lead to destruction. I met the pastor. How can a reasonable person look past that? Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. I didnt feel pressured. forgiveness means its paid in full. The sad part is that members have no idea how they are viewed unless they ask uncomfortable questions. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. "Nor is it outside the parameters of a gospel ministry. The Reformed Neo Cal world is going, Mark who?. Likewise, you cannot be or stay a pastor if you find out that you cant respect people. 33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, I think what became public is enough to realize they are not safe, not mature but toxic and have been all along. He had no idea. To tell, perhaps? BTW they didnt have a head worship pastor. What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. I am sorry if anything I wrote about Che offended you. A cynical, weary part of me says theyll never change. I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. Well-meaning people are attempting to put Jesus in structures that do not foster the expression of his life in the saints. James River Church is a multi-site church that exists to impact the lives of people through relevant teaching,. Its all good until (insert question or issue). So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. . Church Discipline You will hear the Velcro bar/connect center mentioned several times in each service. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, and that other pastor has a history of patterns of behavior and teachings that are destructive it is wise to ask pastor 1 if he has checked him out before he promotes him. was paul asking for forgiveness? The first time, it was shocking. I can forgive someone even without an apology. I am someone special, like Jesus and Paul. Whats the worst import/export that youve seen? © 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - The Wartburg Watch. @ Lydia: Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. Otherwise, quit calling those 40 pastors and all those victims liars. Adultery, stealing, cheating, being abusive, being a drunkard can also keep you out of heaven.". @ Lydia: -Any allegations are probably not as bad as the truths. Unfortunately, during this difficult season, the focus has been taken off of Jesus and put on me, and that is not what The ROC is all about., http://www.richmond.com/news/local/crime/article_8c6b7719-c4af-523b-b3a6-3c6131e32fd3.html. Think of it as telling a kid how special they are every day and giving them a trophy daily. In case this was not a rhetorical question, vengance is where you make someone pay. And probably they wont. I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. Active homosexuals will not make it into heaven, Lindell said in the sermon. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. For the Christmas services, additional services were added to further provide for social distancing. And thats just the tip of the iceberg. re: Lindells article. It was clear to me that Marks attendance had the potential to divert attention from the real purpose. The 38-year-old "Tomb Raider" beauty has been fighting nonstop with Pitt over his parents' and siblings' dedication to a church with a hate-mongering pastor who rails against gays and preaches that homosexuality dishonors God. Driscoll has used this vague parallels to himself many times, framing the sermon in the context of his own life with the lives of other noble characters, most notably Jesus. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21 that young man is in jail, he didnt receive a huge sentence and is receiving a great outpouring of care and compassion from the community. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. They knew exactly what they were buying. He was a mass murdering thug. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. He is a draw. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. Those who challenged him were openly chastised, disgracefully removed from membership and/or shunned until the organization he created finally said enough is enough and sent him packing (however, with a nice severance package). I dont think people that have fallen for false teachers are stupid, i think instead it reflects the degree of deceit in the false teachers and the seriousnes of the manipulations being used. While I appreciate that we were exposed to different theologians, it seemed the bent was toward Calvinism. Monday, December 15, 2008 Persecuted, but You cant criticize me for a moment. The disciples send him off to Tarsus and after that-there was peace for a time in the churches in Judea, Galilee and Samaria.:o). You dont find out about some of the really bad stuff until you are pretty deep into it. Connection ends, shunning begins and the cycle begins all over again with the next batch of newbies. Mark is playing the victim. In a statement Monday, the Christian County Health Department said they also received numerous complaints from the community about the services and urged those who attended to monitor themselves for COVID-19 symptoms over the next 14 days. . Trump: If you put me back in the White House, 'America will be a free nation once again', The Gospel Coalition takes down 'Sex Won't Save You' article; Rick Warren calls for apology, Wife of pastor killed by reckless driver breaks down in testimony, CPAC: Vivek Ramaswamy warns of 3 secular religions, proposes 'national revival' not separation, From a progressive Christian antagonist to an orthodox Christian advocate, In Haiti, big money for orphanages can endanger children, 7 signs of failed Christian leadership in business, My agonizing question after Nigeria's presidential election, Ukraine war exposes weaknesses in Russia and the West, LA County clears John MacArthurs megachurch in COVID-19 outbreak probe, Calling it persecution by public policy, hundreds of Oregon Christians protest COVID-19 restrictions, 'Churches should suspend services during pandemic.' Well, we can handle the truth. Just some thoughts to consider. I view it as wisdom. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. If so you may be onto something. What Im curious though is how the church (corporate) can self regulate against that in the face of the money and power, both spiritual and temporal, that types like MD help create. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. You want to go all Colonel Jessup and rant about the truth? . THANK YOU! -Katelyn At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. I was mainly trying to establish there is a difference between lovable Hollywood Che and reality Che. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. I called Stephens and informed him Lindell had mentioned him in a sermon. Maybe that offends me and not you because I believe he lied all along about Jesus Christ and I am hoping to convince people of that? And there were no acrobats, flying drummers, or the need to check out the latest cosmetic procedure on the head worship pastor there. Look all those happy people; this must be a great place! Let me look it up. We hunkered down and prepared ourselves for the impact of Mark Driscolls threat. Because he simply cannot be trusted not to repeat himslefthus destroying more lives. now it seems that it has just gone to big business making a dollar off of Jesus name and some easy to quote scriptures. Do you know his history and what he represents? And equally astonishing is that other Christian leaders support his abusive style or at least overlook it. Some Pentecostals or Charismatics are okay with women being preachers or teachers. We have strongly encouraged masking and social distancing each and every weekend during this challenging season. @ Bob M: (Not that I waiting with bated breath). pic.twitter.com/FwaVnYEZIi. I dont see him pastoring a church and I am not even sure his legal problems from the last one are over. As far as people moving into ministry later in life, one would hope they had left that life behind and were new creations in Christ. If so associating with Driscoll they can get the thug part down. No it wasnt, thanks for the insights. There is a distinct period of time that must pass before you can really objectively address the damage that that place does. Your facts are a bit off, beginning with the meaning of Che. I am no fan of his, but there are some big holes in your acvount of his life. 99,693 were here. i hope people will go back and read the whole thing if they havent yet. The best thing about it is one young woman had incredible courage. Also, I received another great message from one of our Australia graduates thought this would bless you too But over time became desensitized and swept up in group-think so as to eventually accept it as acceptable in the 21st century. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. Who has harmed you? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308 Paul spent three years in the desert to become reprogrammed by God. The introduction sounded like it was coming from a caretaker role. In his introductory remarks, he spoke of Marks kindness, humility. I have no power over what Driscoll does and he is free to speak on any stage that will have him. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. ". I have read both accounts that Che was short for Chancho and also a play on his habitually calling everyone che which is slang for pal/friend etc. They sing and wave their arms and hug and praise other givers. If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. I strongly recommend the brief article by Jon Zens at Searching Together entitled Going to the Root Mark Driscoll and the Celebrity System. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. Something has gone seriously wrong in Mega-Land and it aint just thinking about having MD speak at one of their conferences. Guess well see. @ numo: appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. and that it is ok to debate that point in public. . Analogously, there are certain qualities that police forces screen for, to hopefully screen out bullies who want a uniform. I recently darkened the doors of a very small church in another city. yeah, that pastors comment is kinda too scary for me to think about lol. We are passionate about . As I was getting ready for church last Sunday morning, I quickly checked my Facebook feed for any news and saw the this headline (see screen shot below): I 'shared' the article from an Australian news source, along with a comment: "Mark Driscoll needs to step away from the microphone for a long season of contemplation.". I couldnt get through Marks sermon.so what was coming up for me during Pastor Lindells introduction was the idea of the Karpman Drama Triangle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle (Persecutor/Rescuer/Victim roles that people bounce around in during unhealthy interactions.) Which is all to say that if he was a wanted man back in Jerusalem and the believers did not trust him, then some of the credit for his going away for a few years goes to those who did not let him just keep on keeping on, despite some abrupt lateral entry into proto-christianity. Im not as strong or wise as Lydia, but I hope to provide valuable insights based on my experience so that those with eyes to see and ears to hear get out and get out quickly. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. where is God in all this? One of the most chilling doctrines out of Calvinism is using Paul for this purpose. Its what he does. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. The teachings of Christ are based on love and forgiveness, and I will not write off Mark as a person simply because of the things that people have said about him, a small minority of people signing a petition or statements he has made many years ago for which he has since repeatedly apologised, Houston said. I felt physically ill when I saw them. The true character of a man shows when you see how he treats those with less power who depend on him for his income. Theres a persistent rumor that hes going to bring his show here to Phoenix. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. He was engaging, funny and gracious. he was in glory then entered into human. And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. Whats MDs explanation for the ritual shunnings? http://www.mercyministries.org/, though she scrubbed some posts referring to her involvement when it was hillsong ministries mercy ministries there are still a few unscrubs left here and there. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. Good point as far as it goes. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. CCHD is extremely concerned about the health and well-being of all our community members and particularly those who attended the high-capacity event over the weekend. Good luck to you Sam. I have heard Marks message several times now and have some concerns. Connect With Us! I was reading related posts and noticed hes playing the martyr role as Driscoll did. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. Thats why these massive megas arent likely to represent the narrow gate. News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. I do not for one minute believe they are suddenly open. Yet its everywhere in the US and Australia. If not, why not? Hey Sam you may be interested in how Jews interpret the Mashiach (messiah) passages. Christians have to be different than that. This weekend GW is also doing Steven Furtick spontaneous baptism which are executed to the letter like Elevation.
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